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stonetoss is an incel

stonetard yet again saying that any of these political puppets are ‘capitalist’ is laughable. He’s a moron.

I dont understand how in the current year number 6 conservatives still care capitalism and complain when someone is not capitalist enough

Ever notice how a lot of Stonetoss comics invoke the tu quoque fallacy? I dare you guys to actually refute this instead of diverting the argument to a strawman or posting memes or downvoting me without thinking about it first. I’m not even going to argue other points yet, either.

The only topic we’ll argue is this: Does this Stonetoss comic invoke the tu quoque fallacy? True/False? This is the only question you have to ask yourself right now, because it’s the easiest starting point to acknowledging that Stonetoss comics are generally riddled with logical fallacies. If you can acknowledge that this particular comic does, in fact, commit the tu quoque fallacy, then I might, might deem you guys worthy opponents in a debate and we can move on to other debate topics.

Saying “well that’s not the point” or “well the tu quoque fallacy is a dumb fallacy anyway” or “the tu quoque fallacy is a double-edged sword that hurts the other side, too” or “you’re just using tactics to control the conversation” is an automatic forfeit of this debate, because it’s moving the goalpost.

This is the only argument I want to pursue at this time: Is this comic an example of the tu quoque fallacy? Yes or no. If you can’t answer that because it challenges your worldview, then you are not worthy of my time. I don’t debate with idiots.

Going by the wikipedia definition of Tu Quoque following the steps of:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B asserts that A’s actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
3. Therefore, X is false.

I’m not inclined to think this strip in particular invokes it (not sure about any other Stonetoss strips tho). In this case, it seems to me that A is “The Left/Biden” and X is “Trump is a racist, corrupt, capitalist plutocrat” (or an RCCP, for brevity’s sake). B would be Stonetoss, in which case the theoretical Tu Quoque would be Stonetoss saying “But -Biden- is an RCCP! Therefore, his/the left’s claim that Trump is an RCCP is bullshit!”.

The thing is, the comic doesn’t actually try to assert that because Biden’s an RCCP, Trump therefore isn’t an RCCP. It actually outright acknowledges that they’re -both- RCCPs with the “No, the other one” line, and to me just seems to be poking fun at the irony of how the Left are incredibly eager to vote Trump out for being an RCCP despite Biden being one as well.

That’s of course assuming you agree with what I think A, B, and X are in this case. If you consider them different elements of the strip then def let me know, and I’ll reevaluate whether I still think it’s not a TQ with your setup.

I think you and I agree with the comic’s underlying message more than you think. What you’ve pointed out here is exactly what the tu quoque fallacy is typically used for. When someone uses TQ, they aren’t trying to suggest that because someone hypocritically does something, it invalidates the original argument. They’re trying to diminish their own shortcomings by calling a stalemate situation. It’s the equivalent of forcing a draw in chess when you know you’re going to lose.

Think of it this way. If Trump is an RCCP, that is obviously bad. But saying Biden is an RCCP too doesn’t diminish the fact that Trump is. It just means that Biden is bad too. You aren’t refuting the original claim that Trump is a racist–you’re just diverting attention to a completely different argument. People utilize TQ as a form of justification. It’s an appeal to hypocrisy. Logically, if both candidates are bad, we should back neither of them.

Also, TQ is typically used as an excuse for inaction. Let’s say you don’t eat healthy foods and it shows. Someone else who also doesn’t eat healthy foods tells you that you should consider eating more healthy foods. Now, obviously that’s a little hypocritical, certainly, but does that mean that you should continue to be unhealthy? No. You can point out the other person’s hypocrisy all you want and you would be correct about their hypocrisy, but that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t eat healthy.

If you find yourself using TQ often (as Stonetoss does), what you’re doing is making excuses for your behavior by cherrypicking hypocrisy out of a crowd of people who are telling you to make a change for the better. Saying “well they’re racist too” doesn’t mean you have an excuse to be racist. It also doesn’t prove that you’re less racist than the people who would like you to be less racist.

Another underlying conclusion you can make in a forced stalemate situation is to move to the logical next step. If both Trump and Biden are RCCP’s, and we must back one of them, then you have to ask yourself who’s the lesser of the two evils. Who is less of an RCCP? But that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms. Right now we’re just focused on this one question: is this particular comic an example of the tu quoque fallacy? I would say it is.

Oftentimes Stonetoss comics basically do this: https://imgur.com/gallery/feUif

By the way, thank you very much for your in-depth take on this.

Does tu quoque means nobody anywhere is allowed to notice or talk about hypocrisy, ever again?

Look up straw man fallacy since that’s what you’re using right now.

But to answer your question: of course not.

I never said that hypocrisy shouldn’t be noticed or called out. I simply said that when an issue is being debated, pointing out hypocrisy fails to refute the initial argument, and that just because people are hypocritical, we still have a moral obligation to be the best people we can be even when other people aren’t.

I never said that hypocrisy shouldn’t be noticed or called out.

But that’s what you just said. You called it a tu quoque fallacy to notice that the people lecturing us about law and order have bongs in their hands, the people lecturing us about human dignity are men dressed as women, the people lecturing us about human rights want the nation to keep on buying cheap plastic garbage made by political prisoner slave labor in China, the people who wag their fingers us about the value of human life love the abortion industry.

we still have a moral obligation to be the best people we can be even when other people aren’t.

“We?”

Except soirc never said any of that? We’re talking about whether or not the Projection strip uses TQ, and this strip doesn’t mention any of those topics you’re strawmanning out of nowhere.

Also, pretty sure the “we” was referring to “humans in general”. If you don’t have the basic reasoning skills to figure that out, you probably shouldn’t bother trying to debate with people, even if it’s just in a webcomic’s comments section, lol.

You know, we can all scroll up and read exactly what he said.

Stonetoss makes comics that call out Leftists on their grotesque and sickening hypocrisy.

soircneiosnr says “that’s a tu quoque fallacy!” as if this were a formal public debate in front of an audience on a college campus, and not a cartoon. By doing so he apologizes for and minimizes hypocrisy–so long as it’s from Leftists, at least; we don’t know his opinion about whether we’re allowed to notice and call out hypocrisy from anyone else–and declares it off limits for discussion, and wags his finger at the readers and tells us to sit down, shut up, stop noticing, stop talking, and “be better people.”

My response? Nah.

It’s not just about college campus style debate. Knowing how logical fallacies work shows that you know how logic works. Rejecting the concept of logical fallacies heavily implies that you reject logic as well.

You love straw men, don’t you?

You come here to dissect a political meme cartoon as though it were a legal contract, and accuse others of playing games. You can’t be serious.

Do you sit at home in your underwear, clicking a mouse with your Cheeto-stained fingers, watching 20th Century animated cartoons, and then freeze-frame them to argue with the screen that physics doesn’t work that way whenever the coyote hangs in the air a moment looking forlorn before falling over the cliff?

Are you autistic? Serious question.

Are youuuuuuuuu???????? :O

(At this point, I’m not even debating you anymore; I’m just trolling you because you enjoy delving off into the cuh-raziest tangents and seem to get upset about a lot of things you imagine I’ve said. Seriously, I can’t wait to see what you come up with next.)

Whom do you think you’re fooling? It’s not as though we can’t all scroll up and see exactly what you said, that you’ve been backpedaling from and lying about ever since.

This compulsion always to have the last word is another symptom of autism, by the way.

Political comics are not meant to be rigorous arguments, they’re a witty observation of reality that appeals to the readership. In this case it’s an observation of left-wingers’ slavish devotion to Biden now, even though he logically represents everything they hate. “At least he’s better than Trump!” doesn’t even apply, as Trump opposes major corporations and actively has been trying to better minorities, something the Left claims to do.

It’s a rephrasing of the classic Rockthrow comic involving a tug-of-war between libertarians/fascists and communists/oligarchs.

I originally had something else written here in response to this, but Stonetoss himself actually removed my comment. It’s kind of an honor, really. If the artist himself is censoring my content, then I don’t really see the point of continuing this debate. Of course, you moved the goalpost with this comment here (as I predicted many of you would do) so you forfeit the original argument anyway.

Buuuuuut if you guys really want to hear what I said that Stonetoss removed, I’ll try to say it again. Hopefully he won’t censor me this time!

My original response was censored by Stonetoss, so I’ll just make a shorter one that gets the message across and cross my fingers.

So what you’re saying is that when someone makes a political statement, they can be challenged, but when someone makes the exact same political statement but decorates it with drawings and frames it as a cartoon, discussion/criticism no longer becomes an acceptable way to react? Your argument makes no sense.

Okay, gonna just upload my response to pastebin and post the paste ID to see if it’s just getting flagged here for being really long. I’m assuming anyone interested can figure out how to add this to the end of pastebin’s url : X5768Z7f

I read this and I think it’s very thoughtful and you are a lot more eloquent than you give yourself credit for. I disagree–but at least with you I respectfully disagree and only slightly and only on some points. I may provide a response to this in my own time, but I have a life outside of debating strangers in a comic comment section and my response would likely be very long. I was thinking we could just continue to use pastebin links so that the others on here who get easily upset by the concept of criticism and debate don’t have to engage if they don’t want to and there’s less of a chance we’ll get flagged.

Obviously if you’d like to opt out because it’s eating up too much of your time, I won’t stop you. I might do that myself. Contrary to the prevailing belief on here, I don’t have to have the last word–at least not with people who know how to debate properly and understand how logic works.

Thanks again for your thoughts on this!

Using Pastebin IDs for our on-topic responses is def a good idea, since it’ll help avoid clogging the comments with giant walls of text/getting the posts auto-flagged for being so long.

If you do end up deciding to write another follow-up, I’ll def make sure to give it a read! I have far more free time than I know what to do with, and convos like this are a nice change of pace from the usual stuff I occupy myself with, so I’m always up for continuing a discussion until the inevitable “k, I think we’ve both covered our thoughts on the topic as comprehensively as possible, time to respectfully dip out even if we still disagree on some stuff” moment.

so, your intention is to argue with the comments section from the starting point of you being right as an assumption . . . . and trying to argue against you being right about the fallacy, whether or are or not, automatically removes your willingness to continue a debate with them . . . but you think it’s everyone ELSE who is being unreasonable or moving goalposts or strawmanning . . . .

ok.

Ever notice how much shameless hypocrisy there is on the Left in the US? Noticing it isn’t a logical fallacy. It’s a cartoon, not a formal debate.

If you don’t want a formal debate, why don’t you just ignore me then?

Not willing to answer, coward?

That’s rich coming from a guy who started crying when I had a view he didn’t like. I already know you’re going to say some variation of “no u” to this. Whatever.

I’ve noticed that you tend to respond within an hour of whatever I say to you, while I dip in after maybe half a day and dip out. Then you call this whole thing won for you if I don’t respond in two minutes. What, are you clicking the “refresh” button every two seconds? I take pleasure in knowing that you are wasting more of your time and energy than I am.

Barr has just announced investigations into voter fraud, all the leading republicans are with Trump.
For far too long, we have just accepted democrat malfeasance as being part and parcel of the election cycle. Now, Trump is going to clean up the ballot box as well.

“Mueller has just announced an investigation into russian and Ukrainian collusion with the trump campaign. All the leading democrats are with him. For far too long, we have just accepted republican malfeasance as being part and parcel of the election cycle. Now Trump is going to be removed from office.”

If Biden experiences a really embarrassing, public cognitive breakdown between now and when the Presidential Electors meet next month, I wonder if some of Biden’s Electors will change their votes to Trump for the good of the country.

Or maybe aliens invade earth and install trump as head of america’s new dictatorship. /s

You guys are delusional and as time goes on your theories get wilder and wilder. jan 21 gonna be rich.

Read about “faithless Electors”:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector

And what about the delusion of Biden’s mental competency? Anyone who has had to deal with demented elders, as I have, will recognize Biden’s cognitive impairment right away.

Agreed. And the Founders foresaw even this possibility. Read Article 2, section II, clause 2. Ultimate authority to select the electors is in the hands of state legislatures. A simple majority vote suffices, no signature by the Governor required. All that’s needed is courage–a quality in vanishingly short supply among politicians with the big R by their names in the post-Cold War world.

And yes, Biden is obviously severely brain damaged. He was never the brightest or most articulate person in Congress, not by a long shot. And he got a lot worse after he had a series of strokes and multiple brain aneurysms in 1988 that almost killed him, requiring emergency brain surgery to save his life. He has also had what look suspiciously like Parkinson’s tremors on camera multiple times in recent years. And just the past ten years have seen him deteriorate significantly. Running him for President was elder abuse. He should be in a facility where he can get full time nursing care and supervision to keep him from hurting himself–like maybe a prison hospital, for graft and influence-peddling–not clutching the nuclear football in his palsied hands.

People who say “Trump is an embarrassment” ain’t seen nothing yet.

Honk honk.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I live in a state that has a history of usually Republican Governors and in which Republicans have had a near-supermajority in both houses of the state legislature for generations. My state legislature has just announced hearings to investigate allegations of election improprieties. We’ll see.

It’s a certainty that the state legislatures are not properly representing the states, as SCOTUS made it a de facto law that they must not (Reynolds v. Sims), as the liberal strongholds will be overrepresented bigly in the state legislature and rural areas will be suppressed.

Some states are just fortunate enough to be so overwhelmingly Republican that they can still stack the legislature despite SCOTUS aiding the libs with a yuge handicap.

My state legislature has just announced hearings to investigate allegations of election improprieties. We’ll see.

Here’s hoping this goes well for you.

Few years back here we had a Trump-tier debacle where the GOP in power denied that there was any voter fraud whatsoever, despite blatant evidence that there was (eg: foreigners active on the voting rolls), akin to Trump’s commission in 2017, and then the GOP lost bigly in 2018 and was all “We lost?! Election Fraud, I want a recount!” and the libs in power were all “Fraud? Can’t be, you said there was no fraud! lololol”

Here’s hoping.

Just this morning our state’s Senate Majority Leader and Speaker of the House, both Republicans, were in Washington to meet with President Trump. Both got attacked by an Antifa/BLM mob at the airport while trying to board their flight back.

That’s not the action of a group confident the law and the truth are on their side, is it? You could almost say it stinks of desperation and panic.

The Daily Stormer is unironically probably a better, more complete, more accurate, less biased source of news and information than Teen Vogue.

Just as Alex Jones is unironically probably a better, more complete, more accurate source, less biased of news and information than the (((Seven Sisters of the American Newsmedia))): CNN, MSNBC, the New York Times, Time-Warner, the Boston Herald, the Washington Post, and the Chicago Tribune.

Some may regard this with horror, but it’s undeniable fact. The American newsmedia have been presenting agitprop in the guise of news since before anyone reading this was born, and have no one to blame but themselves for their loss of credibility among thinking people.

Joe Biden embarrassing himself is common with his gaffes. Doing something even more embarrassing in the public eyes is not impossible you lemming.

Donald Trump is apparently not the favorite candidate of the ones who control the media and the scum who rig elections.

Biden has been experiencing really embarrassing, public cognitive breakdowns on a fairly regular basis for about thirty years now. Leftists don’t care. They hate Whitey, capitalism, and civilization so much that they’re gleeful at the opportunity to put the nuclear launch codes into the hands of an old man with brain damage and textbook Wernicke’s aphasia.

Honk honk.

Back in 2015 I only vaguely knew about Trump. I viewed him as more of a New York celebrity than a national figure; and because I don’t care about New York, I saw no reason to pay attention to him.

After seeing way more of him in action than I cared to over the last four and half years, I can say now that he doesn’t strike me as a wise or even a merely shrewd man, and I don’t see why he has a personality cult. He certainly doesn’t come across as the mastermind in QAnon propaganda. You’d think he would have well thought out plans ready to put into action for winning this election. Instead he left it pretty much to the haphazard, and he’ll go down in history as one of the most embarrassing Presidents in our lifetimes.

I don’t think he can go down as worse than Obama–bowing to the King of Saudi Arabia, pallets of billions of dollars of cash flown into Tehran by the dark of night, Gunwalker, spying on journalists, making the IRS a weapon against political dissidents, his Attorney General getting held in contempt of Congress, recalling the rescue mission and allowing the murder of American citizens by an Islamist mob in Benghazi, and on and on and on and on and on.

I said it back in 2016. Trump could be a better President than Obama or Hillary if he spent four years taking naps in the Oval Office and playing golf. He gave patriots and right-minded people four more years to prepare, train, and make contacts with like-minded fellow citizens that they wouldn’t have had if Hillary had gotten in. It looks like that time may be up, but he gave it to us.

make contacts with like-minded fellow citizens

Except that, as Stonetoss ofc pointed out, Emperor Trump did not do anything to stop Big Tech from putting the kibosh onto our ability to network.

Pretty soon we’re all going to be like Alex Jones and forced to use massive text-message chains to communicate with our fellows. Luckily for us, both millennials and Boomers are competent with that.

A fraud that it’s obvious and that may not be able to prove it, is that Democrats had access to the electoral database, made a list of voters who generally don’t vote, filled out for Biden and sent the forms by mail.
But only a few of these votes end up being duplicated (and are already being investigated), because someone always changes their mind and ends up voting.

Exactly for that reason a recount may not be enough and it’s also not fair. If they prove that + 90% of the illegal votes went to Biden, the election must be canceled. This is purposeful fraud.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7c56853527d40eef87ae1739c230847260be54de5a379dbd4a28a17f571cbd88.png

Lol except that that graph is based off purposefully miscalculated numbers that you all are just eating up; they purposely used the wrong, lower number ONLY when calculating the 2020 results to make it seem like it was impossibly high.

Really you all will just fall for anything that says what your feelings tell you

So, pass the officials turnouts to us. Let’s see.

Too easy!

https://elections.wi.gov/elections-voting/statistics/turnout

Go down to the first link, 2020 voter turnout, and see the XL spreadsheet.

Current viter tabulation has the count of votes at about 3,200,000. Take that number and divide it by the 4,500,000 estimated voters for 2020. This is the same way WI calculates every turnout.

You get about 71%. This is high, but still within normal for WI. its not even the highest WI has had in the past 20 years, actually.

Nah bro, I actually do research instead of pulling the first thing off twitter that makes me feel good

Years ago the filmmaker Michael Moore condemned the National Rifle Association for allegedly taking advantage of the actor Charlton Heston as its spokesman, around the time Heston announced that he had Alzheimer’s. So when will Moore condemn the Democrat Party for taking advantage of Joe Biden when Biden’s handlers can no longer cover up his dementia?

Hey stonetoss fo fcking retard, do some actual research about capitalism, here’s a hint, Joe Biden and trump aren’t it – moron!!! –

Perhaps Stonetoss is edgelording and taking the position that modern capitalism is a euphemism for crony corporatism and that “true capitalism” would be what is reviled today as national socialism?

How is National SOCIALISM, have anything to do with Capitalism? Capitalism just means everything is privatized. -__-

The idea is that what we know as National Socialism is supposed to have indeed been what we think of as proper capitalism, but we’ve been misled for years.

NatSoc is supposed to have been a system where the ultimate goal was that everything served the people, embodying that “volk before reich” philosophy. So under NatSoc, all companies would not be owned or controlled by the state, except to ensure that they would patriotically serve the people, so, for example, the modern system of an “American” company producing its goods in China and stashing its profits in Ireland would be impossible. All globalism would be barred.

Since “socialism” in any form conjures up images of bread lines and Bernie Sanders, I am not sure that it could be reclaimed. But “capitalism” has become so corrupted by globalism that it also evokes a system that is bad for the people: the mantra of modern capitalism is “What’s good for Wall Street is bad for Main Street”

So we have a system that we had and want to have again, but can’t really describe it as the two main terms for it are poisoned. Sounds like Newspeak at work.

So under NatSoc, all companies would not be owned or controlled by the state, except to ensure that they would patriotically serve the people

Fun fact: this was state law across all the US until after the Civil War. Any corporation that was found to have acted against the public interest was liable to have its assets seized, and, in especially egregious cases, its corporate board could be jailed. Then in 1886 there was a Supreme Court case, Santa Clara vs. Southern Pacific, in which it was decided that corporations–legal fictions existing on a sheet of paper–are people and have rights. All aboard for Clown World! Toot toot!

The maisntream definition of capitalism: “Capitalism is an
economic system in which private individuals or businesses own capital
goods. The production of goods and services is based on supply and
demand in the general market—known as a market economy—rather than
through central planning—known as a planned economy or command economy”
Nothing about privatizing *literally* everything, you ancap idiot

I don’t get why today’s communists and anarchists embrace the ordinary, the ugly and the broken, because a century ago many of them wanted to include Nietzsche’s philosophy into their world view, and they speculated about how the new social order they wanted to build would produce superhumans. They saw the ordinary, the ugly and the broken as the victims of a dysfunctional capitalist society, in other words, and they aspired to raise man’s physical and cognitive levels to higher standards. Trotsky states this explicitly in his book Literature and Revolution.

The Communists of the 20th Century were weird like that. Trofim Lysenko was a charlatan and a fool, but he was able to keep a straight face as he told powerful Party members that all entities in nature and all living organisms are at heart good little Marxist-Leninists, and that sufficient Will can even rewrite heredity–for example, it’s not natural selection that makes giraffes’ necks grow longer by starving all the short ones that can’t reach the high leaves, no, it’s that giraffes have the Will to Power and they are stretching their necks so hard that they’re stretching their chromosomes too.

It’s all a dog’s breakfast of contradictions and lies carefully concocted to appeal to the vanity of ruthless but dull-witted men who thought of themselves as the Revolutionary Vanguard, of course, but they made him for a time the most powerful man in the world of science and academia in the USSR. And his dogma crippled Soviet science and engineering for generations.

LOL, suddenly you’re now a 3edgy5me disenfranchised “noper”? Why’d you stop licking Trump boot? It was funnier when you just kept licking boot.

More absolutely fascinating news:

This Matt Margolis piece references this poll, which says that 75% of Republicans agree that the election was stolen by the Biden campaign, by fraud. This isn’t surprising. The really amusing part is that 30% of Democrats and 29% of independents agree. Even the normies are starting to smell the stench, despite everything Facebook and Twitter and Snopes and Google can do to hide the truth and stop people from talking about it.

Tick. Tock. Tick. Tock.

It’s very ironic that the greatest democracy™ can only give a choice between an old idiot that gets lost mid-sentence and another old idiot that uses 12 y.o. words on twitter like some mean highschool girl.

And that’s after ”choosing” between some old harlot because she’s a female, vs the orange idiot.

Pathetic.

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